sexism: the little things

[helenic]

I'll admit it: the main reason I repost links like these isn't because I think I need to check my own privilege (although I do); it's because I'm tired of having conversations about gender with people who don't believe that sexism is a problem for most women today. Usually well-meaning, smart, decent guys who live in the same queer-friendly alternative bubble as I do. Asking them to listen before they become defensive is an important part of that conversation. However, I've started to think it might be worth actually keeping notes on the sexism I experience.

One of the problems I have with feminist analysis is that I have no stomach for anger. I just don't have the energy for it. Sometimes something will offend me, but I'm much more inclined to shrug it off than dwell on it. Sometimes something that happens to me will strike me as intellectually offensive, but my emotional barriers stop me from being personally riled by it. This is a valuable self-defense mechanism and a political weakness. I'm much more interested in putting my time and energy into creating positive, beautiful, affirming artworks and experiences for people than I am in maintaining an anger at the injustice I perceive around me. Injustice is everywhere: being angry all the time would make me unhappy. I have a flash temper and it often doesn't take much to hurt or annoy me, but I don't stay angry easily.

I'm pretty sure I have no real concept of the scale of the sexism I've experienced in my life. Women are, let's face it, used to being victims of sexism - we rationalise it away, shrug it off, don't dwell on it. Which is all very well for short-term personal happiness, but not for revolutionising society. We go out of our way to avoid sexism, which is often self-defeating when our long-practised skills at avoiding abuse result in a lack of convincing examples to persuade anyone that there is, in fact, a problem.

I'm not interested in being angrier, really. But what I can do is observe, take notes, make a record. I think it might be interesting to start using this LJ to record examples of sexism when I notice it. And I won't notice everything; I'm not trained in this sort of analysis. But it would be useful for me to have a better idea of the scale of it, rather than having a transient, unsubstantiated, emotional sense that it's there, but never being able to think of good examples during relevant conversations. I don't want this to turn into a list of complaints; I certainly don't want anyone to start criticising me for not balancing this list with examples of female privilege. That's not what I'm focussing on, here. Nor am I trying to say that women are the only victims of sexism or oppression. I'm just trying to combat a very real belief among my (mostly male) friends that a feminist perspective is out-dated and inappropriate in our society.

I'd encourage anyone who's had similar experiences to comment, just because I know it's not just me, and I think it's important to notice the little things.


1. Today I was walking through Cavendish Square, eating a sandwich. My phone beeped, and I held the half-eaten sandwich in one hand while I read the message. A middle-aged bloke - he looked more like a construction worker than a city office worker - was walking towards me. I didn't notice him until he passed me, but he'd obviously been watching me for a couple of minutes. "I bet that was tasty!" he said unpleasantly, looking me up and down and gesturing to my sandwich. "I saw you licking your fingers." I gave him my best contemptuous look and kept on walking.

The bloke would not have said that to another man. A woman would not have said that to a man, because men eating while walking is normal. When a man is eating it is unremarkable: to men, food is fuel. To women, food is a complex socio-political issue. Women are not meant to treat food as fuel: a woman eating in the street is making a public display of herself that invites comment. It is a sensual display that draws attention to her body and figure. She is not permitted to mind her own business; men are at liberty to approach her and make personal remarks. This applies especially if she's alone. The discomfort or threat felt by a young, solitary woman approached by a strange man making personal remarks in public is irrelevant; the most important thing is that, by engaging in such a lascivious display right there on the street, she is clearly attention-seeking and will welcome scrutiny and criticism from any man who happens to catch sight of her.

2. Several times - four now, I think - in the last few weeks, I have been sent photos of a stranger's cock via Bluetooth while sitting on the bus.

The first time this happened I was on the 67, going down Kingsland Road. I was sitting upstairs and having a flirty text conversation with mr_magicfingers, whose house I'd just left. My phone beeped, asking me if I wanted to accept $random_img219278. Surprised and not really thinking, I pressed yes. It was a photo of an erect cock belonging to a white man who was sitting down with his tracksuit bottoms pulled down to reveal his erection. He was holding it in one hand.

I deleted it, instantly, heart pounding. My first thought was: Oh my god. It's the guy sitting behind me. He saw me using my phone, checked to see if he could see any active Bluetooth devices, and sent it. Now he's seen me receive the message, he knows the Bluetooth device he detected is mine. He might be sitting behind me. Oh my god. He's sitting on the bus with his cock out and he's going to come and sit next to me any minute. Shit. Shit. I disabled my Bluetooth, nonchalantly put my phone away, and stared out the window. I was shaking. I was certain that whoever sent the message had now worked out who I was; that any moment now when the bus stopped, a man would walk down the aisle, sit next to me, and get his cock out. The photo had been a threat. It had been a violent threat.

The second thing I thought was: That'll teach me for leaving my Bluetooth turned on. I shouldn't have been so stupid. This is my fault.

The third thing I thought was: Wait. That wasn't mr_magicfingers, taking our flirtation one step further? Shit, have I just got completely the wrong end of the stick? No, no, it didn't look like him. And I'm too far away from the house, surely. But oh shit, I don't actually know how Bluetooth works. It wasn't him. Damnit, I can't check the picture to be sure - I've deleted the message. No, it can't be him. That's not like him, even if he had meant it well. I'm too far away, it must be someone on the bus.

It wasn't until then that I started feeling angry, started thinking How dare he. How dare he make me feel threatened like that. I sent an angry Twitter, and received a couple of sympathetic/aghast texts in reply, which made me feel a little better. After a few minutes, I got up out of my seat when the bus stopped, and made my way downstairs without looking back over the bus. It was an effort not to try and work out who had sent it. I kept my head down, not wanting to draw attention to myself, sat downstairs next to an older woman, and tried to put it out of my mind.

About a week later I was sent another photo by an unknown Bluetooth device on the same bus, just as I was about to get off on St Ann's Road. I cursed myself for leaving my Bluetooth on and refused the photo without looking at it.

But thinking about it, I wondered if I was right in assuming the photo I'd refused had been like the first. I was so surprised by the frequency of this new form of sexual harassment that I decided to leave my Bluetooth on and accept all the photos as a deliberate exercise. If I refused to accept them, I couldn't be sure that they were the kind of photo I thought they were. It was pointless getting angry about the phenomenon if I was making assumptions. It's happened four times in total, including the unverified second time, and as far as I can tell from a cursory glance (I really don't want to look closely) it's been a different sender each time. I've deleted all the photos.

I actually doubt that these photos are taken on the bus. They're probably saved on the phone and the mobile flasher spends his time trying to send them to random phones, on the off-chance that any of them are girls. The recipient has no way of telling who the sender of the message is by looking around them; and if they're female, they're probably too unsettled to want to try to identify the sender. Maybe they just get a thrill out of knowing that a possibly female stranger has unwillingly been exposed to their penis. Maybe they're keeping an eye on the girls in the bus to see if any of them has a phone that goes off; if any of them look upset or scared after checking it. I don't know. But whatever it is, I find it grossly offensive and borderline threatening. I don't care how bizarre your kink is; don't involve unsuspecting passers-by in it, particularly not when women are so constantly aware of the risk of sexual threats in urban environments. This isn't just me being a wimp. It is normal and valid for a woman to feel threatened in those circumstances, and it's sexual harassment to deliberately make her feel that way, even if you can't identify her in a crowd.

3. A more general example: strange men shouting after a woman who is jogging or running down a public street. Occasionally after a woman riding a bike. The shouts may be encouraging, jeering, sexual - there's a broad range. I don't run or cycle in public myself so I only notice this as a passer-by, but I still notice it a fair amount. The point is not the content of the shout, but the fact that the shout is made by a man or men about a woman who is doing something physical in public. Like my first example, anything a woman does that draws attention to her body in public - however normal or non-sexual the activity - is fair game for male commentary, no matter how uncomfortable, threatened, upset or irritated it will make the woman in question. Do these men really think the women will be glad of the attention? No - they don't think about the woman's feelings at all. They are objectifying her. She is running in public: her jiggling female body's only purpose is entertainment for any men watching, and her feelings and humanity are irrelevant.

4. Another more general example: strange men commenting on my mood when I'm out in public. This ranges from the all-too-common variations on "Smile!" which almost every woman I know has experienced, almost always from a man ("lighten up, love!" "it's not that bad!" "give us a smile, darlin'!" ) to any comment on how a man perceives me to be feeling. They almost always read my expression wrong and even if they do, it's none of their business. I am not a public object, I am not here for your entertainment. My face's only purpose is not to be cheerful and attractive so as to brighten your little world. I am a human being with my own ups and downs and I do not presume to comment on yours - at least, not with a shallow one-liner; sitting next to someone and offering a sympathetic ear is a very different thing. You are not concerned for my welfare. You are telling me to modify my appearance to please you. Women do not tell me to do this. Men do not do it to other men. Kindly do not do it to me.

5. Ooh, another one: men groping me in clubs. I go to a lot of clubs and they tend to be very hot. Both men and women tend to wear skimpy outfits; men are often topless, sometimes in skirts or shorts; women are often in miniskirts or bikinis. Everyone's sweaty. There seems to be an unspoken assumption among a lot of the men attending such clubs that if female flesh is exposed, it is inviting touch from anyone, including strangers. Every time I go out I'm groped at least once; one night it happened over a dozen times. This isn't just men - sometimes it's young women who are pilling their faces off and just not thinking. But it's mostly men, and I'm much more confident asking the women to please not do that without asking than I am with the men. I'm sure they mean well - they're having a lovely time, everyone's so pretty, let's spread the love, man. But I hate not being able to move through a crowd without anonymous, sweaty hands reaching to grab my bum or breasts or belly, and I hate being made to feel like a kill-joy for wanting people I don't know to get their hot, smelly paws off me. Someone coming up and complimenting me, and asking for a hug or a kiss? No problem - sometimes I'll say yes, and if I say no I'll do so politely. Just assuming that because my body is in their vicinity, it is available for them to fondle? Not fucking on. It's such an endemic problem of club culture that you can't even complain to the venue staff - it happens to everyone, it's normal, and they won't do anything about it. If they're a particularly lovely club and you talk to one of the organisers rather than one of the venue staff, and you can point out the person involved, they might go up and ask them to stop, but keeping track of someone you've barely seen in the first place in a crowd like that is not easy, and most of the time I don't even want to take a closer look - or I might not be able to if the crowd is particularly busy.

That's all I can think of right now. I'll add more as and when they happen; I have no doubt that they will. Please feel free to contribute your own, whether or not they're related to the above. The more anecdotal evidence I have, the more chance we have of persuading the non-feminists reading this that we aren't imagining things.

Next question: what's the best way to respond to this kind of thing? The older and more confident I get, the more ready I am to stand up for myself in public, to make a fuss. I would dearly love to respond to these examples by loudly and clearly calling attention to the behaviour and making it clear that it's unacceptable. I don't; I keep my head down and hurry on. Occasionally I manage a contemptuous laugh or a withering look first. I'd love to have a clear, pointed comeback that called people who do this up on it without starting a confrontation that could get nasty, but sadly, I doubt it's possible. If anyone has any bright ideas, I'd love to hear them.

In the meantime I shall await the inevitable responses from male readers telling me that they're not like that; that I'm overreacting; that the above are neither indicative of endemic issues nor examples of sexism. G'wan, prove me wrong. :)

Comments

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

OK, it's already been addressed, but you're commenting on my comments, so I'm excersicing my right to countercomment :)

I should be able to walk through the roughest areas of town at any time of day or night, with whatever gold jewlery I would like. The onus is on the muggers to stop, rather than me altering my behaviour to "suit" the world the muggers have created.

This si all very well, and I'll be happy sitting on my moral high ground as I'm beated and robbed.
Actually, moral weakling that I am, I don't follow this path. I avoid the dangerous places and don't flaunt wealth.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how this is a valid analogy? No one's suggesting that I want to do something that everyone knows is dangerous and stupid, but it would be nice to be able to use my phone on public transport without getting pictures of penises? I might have a perfectly legitimate reason for me to have bluetooth on and turning it off isn't an option.

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

erm ... from where I sit walking around with your BT turned on IS dangerous and stupid, so from my perspective the analogy makes some sense

I was fairly sure that most people knew this. This thread has shown me how wrong I am.
You know people can hijack a turned on bluetooth phone and use it to make calls, DL stuff etc? If not, you do now.

I wonder how many people will read this thread but still leave their BT turned on ... ?

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

This isn't about bluetooth though. This is about someone invading my boundaries and getting off on causing me discomfort or making me feel threatened.

If I wanted to be educated about the perils of bluetooth (which I don't and you make far too many assumptions about my level of technological literacy) then I'd go to a forum to discuss it. What *is* being discussed here is how technology is used to harass women and make them feel vulnerable. Anyone can have their phone hijacked, get sent viruses and so on, but there's an extra level of unpleasantness reserved for women using this technology.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

I don't know, the mugging analogy is one that I find fitting in a way, although perhaps not entirely the way in which it was presented here.

A number of years ago I was living in area surrounding the town centre and working night shifts at a fast food restaurant for not very good money, and that gave me the option of walking home or spending a significant portion of my wage on a taxi home every night.

For a rather long while I did walk home. It saved me much-needed money and I actually enjoyed the walk; the city at night can be a beautiful thing. Eventually I got mugged and after that I started taking a taxi home. I guess it altered my risk-assessment.

However, in the same way you're objecting here, I would not be happy with victim-blaming. Okay, it was arguably a bit naive of me to keep making that walk, and perhaps it is more sensible in terms of self-interest to have taken a taxi, but I had good reasons for preferring to walk, and I had a moral and legal right to do so without being mugged.

These days, I'd advise someone to be cautious of making a walk home through town at that time of night by themselves, but that doesn't stop me believing that 100% of the moral fault of any mugging is still the mugger, and it's fully right for 100% of the legal blame to fall on the mugger.

I guess the really important thing is that we don't think of me deciding to take a taxi as a solution to the problem, because the real solution has to be addressing my inability to take that walk safely.

All the same, I'd still take a taxi in that situation now.

It's an analogy I've often brought up in response to men who victim-blame in regards to rape in order to illustrate the line between 'it may not be safe to get severely drunk in the company of people you can't trust' and 'it's partially drunk people's fault if they get raped'.

The former statement seems (to me) a fact that may be worth bearing in mind when making a risk-assessment, the latter is simply a disgusting shift of moral blame onto a victim, particularly when it results in all our 'solutions' to rape-culture being ways that women can protect themselves rather than punishing and deterring rape.

Hope this post isn't too out-of-line with your intentions for this post, I just hoped it would put a more interesting spin on the relationship between victim-blaming in other crimes and victim-blaming in regards to sexual offences.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

Looking at other posts there have been posted some very good points about ways in which this analogy is flawed in other ways, such as it's regular use in presenting avoiding rape as being as simple a choice as seen in the above, and I won't disagree with that.

I mostly mention it because I do think that it can be used to question victim-blaming in general, which applies to a wide variety of crimes.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to hear you were mugged and how this has affected you - it looks like you feel unsafe in situations where you used to feel safe, and that's an unpleasant thing to feel.

"It's an analogy I've often brought up in response to men who victim-blame in regards to rape in order to illustrate the line between 'it may not be safe to get severely drunk in the company of people you can't trust' and 'it's partially drunk people's fault if they get raped'.

The former statement seems (to me) a fact that may be worth bearing in mind when making a risk-assessment, the latter is simply a disgusting shift of moral blame onto a victim, particularly when it results in all our 'solutions' to rape-culture being ways that women can protect themselves rather than punishing and deterring rape."

Yes, thank you for saying that.

I think it's quite telling that you were forced to modify your behaviour and do something you didn't want to do as a result. There are so many things that we are told we shouldn't do so we don't attract the wrong sort of male attention - here are some (http://www.safetyforwomen.com/tips.htm) - and I do wonder if the men telling us that we shouldn't be taking risks are aware of what, exactly, counts as a risk to women. If I don't follow all of these tips, am I taking unacceptable risks and asking for it?

It shouldn't be my responsibility to modify my behaviour and live so guardedly - other people should not be attacking or harassing me.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

"think it's quite telling that you were forced to modify your behaviour and do something you didn't want to do as a result. There are so many things that we are told we shouldn't do so we don't attract the wrong sort of male attention - here are some - and I do wonder if the men telling us that we shouldn't be taking risks are aware of what, exactly, counts as a risk to women. If I don't follow all of these tips, am I taking unacceptable risks and asking for it?"

That list inspired mixed reactions to be honest.

I can't relate properly to that list; I'm not female and a number of them don't apply to me, yet a lot remind me of the sorts of things I do to avoid danger.

I don't like travelling in unlocked cars for instance. The only time I travel around my estate is to and from the bus stop, and I make an active effort to walk quickly whilst trying not to look like I'm not worried about anything, but whilst making sure to get my keys out of my bag before hand so I don't spend too long at the doorstop, and if I've been listening to my mp3 player, I often turn it down to make sure I'm aware of who is around me. I often try to pay a lot of attention to what possible danger I might be in.

Like my reluctance to walk home alone at night, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Part of me feels that it's good to feel unsafe if I genuinely am unsafe.

Yet that can go too far. It's no good locking myself in all day in order to protect myself from crime. It would probably work, but it's not worth it. Sometimes life has to come with a bit of risk.

That list mentions clothing and everyday I dress in clothes that increase the risk of violent attack, or at least aggravating/threatening behaviour.

That's just the long-hair, tight clothes and nail-varnish, never mind the cross-dressing. If being in a short skirt is a risk for women, then it certainly is for me. I remember walking home alone one night in nothing other than a short PVC dress and being very nervous of every van driver that stopped to offer me a lift, and having to just shake my head (and keep walking rather quickly) in case saying 'no' caused a sudden realisation that I was male :o/

I suspect there are people who would say I 'ask for it' by dressing the way I do. I'd certainly be safer if I cut my hair, wore normal clothes, and certainly if I never cross-dressed.

But that's obviously nonsense. I don't invite physical abuse. I'm not even being naive; I know the risks.

Does this relate to women's experiences of similar? Not sure. I'm guessing so.

I know I'd be very resentful of someone who attributed blame on me being a victim because of not having a mainstream aesthetic or being a bit genderqueer. Neither of those things are things I'm ashamed of, and both are things I have a right to. I guess that might be comparable to women who dress in ways they show some of their bodies, or who are openly sexual or flirt with boys beyond that which is deemed acceptable.

And there certainly is something rather suspicious about the way that rape-culture is used to scare women back into traditional gender roles, expressions and behaviours. I'm sure it's unintentional in most individual cases, but all the same.

[forthwritten.livejournal.com]

It's a long process of socialisation that contributes to this constant wariness. When I was in school (also in Southampton, incidentally), there'd be reports of men trying to bundle girls into their cars often enough for us to worry about a car pulling up next to us, even if the driver just wanted directions. It's something I still worry about if a car pulls up next to me - every single time so far it's just been someone asking for directions, but it only needs to happen once for me to become a statistic.

I agree it's a bad thing - I haven't fully internalised it myself (probably because I rely on my non-feminine appearance too much) and it scares women into giving up their freedoms, but if the alternative is assault and rape what can you do?

You do understand the stuff about clothing, but I'm just pointing out that what women have to do to not invite physical abuse is vastly different and more complicated to what most men have to do. The consequences of us taking risks are different too.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

Certainly wouldn't want to deny that, was just trying to relate it as much as possible to my own experiences as way of understanding.

Certainly fear of rape is not a big factor in my life.

I've not any sisters to compare to, but I know that when there was a flasher in the estate my neighbours quickly stopped their daughters from going out in the evening, but not their sons.

And I can get drunk at a nightclub, or leave my drink alone, in a way that I imagine would make me feel much more unsafe (and be judged by others to be unsafe) if I were female.

I think one of the many disturbing things about hearing that a woman was raped in the Slimelight toilets recently was that the safety concerns of unisex toilets had not really occurred to me. In fact, I've always liked the idea of unisex toilets, but that's seemingly just out of privilege because, as a man, there's nothing threatening about them.

I've certainly experienced wariness of using public toilets for fear of being caught alone with a thug who takes general objection to my appearance, but there's never been fear of sexual violence, and that is a fear of other men again that is simply not inspired by the presence of women.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Sorry, confused by your analogy. What is it that I as a woman am flaunting that makes it inevitable that I"m going to get hassled? Is it my vagina?

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

This took me a few reads to understand.
I think you may have mis-followed the thread.

I'll clarify what I mean :
By walking around with your bluetooth turned on you are making yourself an easy target / victim
By walking around the bad part of town showing your gold rolex you are making yourself an easy target / vicim

Once you become a victim of these things under the above conditions you cannot entirely blame the mugger / blue-phreak. I think you have to take *some* responsibilty yourself for making it so easy for them.

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

hmm ...

I've been mugged twice. Both times I was falling into the catagory of "doing something stupid".

OK it was entirely the fault of the attacker, bu tI don't feel like I can "cry victim". In other words, I feel that the blame has to be at least partly mine. Since then I've thought about it and try to avoid going back to "doing something stupid".


Erm : for reference I'm not all that keen on direct links between RL names and OL names.

[wildeabandon.livejournal.com]

I've deleted the comment and won't make the link again.

For reference, I'm not all that keen on having it implied that I'm partly responsible for being raped.

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying you were, at all. If I implied it I'm sorry.

I'm not feeling responible for that either. Sorry, this is "talking about me", but I want to make it clear that that is just what I was doing

I while ago I was at a mutual friends and a young woman went to the shops and got physically assualted on the way back. I felt responsible. And Angry - mostly at myself.
I had offered to walk her, I almost insisted - trouble was she'd refused an advance from me the night before. I thought she may have been more worried about harrassment from me going with her than the unknown dangers outside. So I stayed in the house, others offered but were put off.
It happened. I felt terrible. For days. She seemed to shrug it off as "one of those things", which also made me quite appalled.

When I say I feel resposible when I get mugged, and responsible to advise my friends, i mean ME. I'm not saying you should. I'm not even saying I should in the many ways that I do, but I still do.

In a more general sense I think the problem that people have talking to me about these very emotional subjects is that I don't seem to get emotional about them. People equate this with me not caring. This is not the case.

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Oh right, I see. So this thread responds purely to the Bluetooth part, and doesn't remotely touch on the fact that it's part of a wider pattern of sexist harrassment that libellum describes? Is that right?

It's just that I've heard the "going around flaunting my gold Rolex in a dodgy part of town" analogy in the context of date-rape as well, you see. It's a shame you didn't choose something less loaded, but I guess that's a n understandable mistake for a beginner (http://libellum.livejournal.com/308804.html?thread=5195076#t5195076).

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

Link doesn't work :(
Takes me back to the top of the post.

Yes I was taking this branch of the thread to just be about BT. You weren't. Mis-understanding.
Now I understand the context you were speaking in I can see where your coment came from and it makes more sense to me.

On to issue of personal responsibilty : Personally I believe there are situations and circumstances one can put oneself in that increase the chances of being hi-jacked / mugged / raped.
I try and avoid those situations and when I find out others around me aren't aware of them I do my bes tto inform them of the danger and precautions.
This seems easier going to beat up all the hi-jackers / muggers / rapists. It also seems to be more effective than letting it happen and then sympathising with the victim.

Are you really disagreeing with these statements?
You say "it's a shame you didn't use something less loaded", does that mean you kind of see what I mean but think I chose a bad example? Or that you think I'm a just a rookie feminist and disagree entirely?

[biascut.livejournal.com]

Yes it does: if you scroll down, you'll see it's a link to a comment on this post.

a rookie feminist

Oh, that's so not what I think of you.

I think you chose an example which I have seen widely used to defend the proposition that women are partially to blame for misogynist violence that they suffer. I find it completely useless, because
a) it does not explain what it is that women are presumed to be waving around, ie. what is the equivalent of the "rolex watch" or "wallet stuffed with money" or whatever the variant is;
b) where these places are that women should avoid in order not to be the victims of sexual violence, ie. what is the equivalent of the "dodgy area" or "council estate at night";
c) it compares women's sexuality to property;
d) it assumes that women, like men, are most at risk from strangers;
e) it treats sexual violence as if it were a matter of isolated incidents committed by asocialised individuals, rather than as a manifestation of a wider system of sexual violence (and if you want to dispute that it is a part of a wider system of violence, I refer to the question I asked elsewhere: ask yourself, what standards would you recognise, and why are you so reluctant to accept the standards that serve for nearly all the women on this post?);

and f) IT'S JUST SO FUCKING STUPID.

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

yup, already got it. Ta

Oh, that's so not what I think of you.
Probably a good thing
:)


Good reasons, one and all. I'll remember in the future not to use the rolex example in conjunction with rape. I'm fairly sure I've not done this previously, at least in this thread.
I will keep using it as an example blue-tooth hacking however.

I've already said sorry once to some-one else who thought I was implying that this arguement could be applied to rape.
If you really thought I was trying to imply that, then I'll say sorry to you as well - although I don't think it will be as heartfelt as Elise's.

responsibility

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

Having been mugged, and arguably by making naive decisions regarding my personal safety, I don't agree with what you wrote here at all.

There is no type of responsibility that I 'shared' in with my muggers when I got mugged. The moral responsibility was all theirs, as was the legal responsibility.

Okay, so it may be worth be opting to be more careful in future, but that's something different, and if we're going to consider that a kind of 'adopted responsibility for my own safety', then it's not the sort of responsibility that is 'shared' with the muggers, and the muggers can very much still be -entirely- blamed for their actions and the event itself.

Re: responsibility

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

I agree with what you're saying I think, but I was seeing it from a different angle:

I can only be responsible for my own actions. There is no way I can be responsible for my muggers actions.
I'll take responsiblilty for my actions, he takes responsibilty for his.


I feel the need to point out now :
I AM NOT LINKING THIS TO RAPE.
In any way.
I see rape and theft as entirely different crimes. I'm sure there are many views on this, and mine may be wrong. But that is my view when writng this.

Re: responsibility

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is that victim-blaming in general isn't very nice, and it's association with rape is hard to ignore.

That being said, I do understand the angle you're coming from, I just think it fails to make important distinctions.

I understand the usage of your term. Yes, it's good to be 'responsible' for one's own safety because we can't always expect other people to live up to their moral and legal responsibility to not abuse us.

But if you look back on what you actually expressed, that wasn't quite it. You're new post does suggest that the criminal is entirely responsible for his/her actions, whilst your previous one doesn't.

Well, to be blunt, your previous post was victim-blaming, and even this one might be depending on what you mean by 'responsibility' in this context.

I *hate* victim-blaming.

[fellcat.livejournal.com]

Two ramblers out walking meet a grizzly bear. 'We'll never outrun it!' says the first. The second replies calmly: 'I don't have to… I just have to outrun you.

Putting pressure on women to avoid sexual predation is like telling the ramblers to run faster. Someone still has to come last. Someone still has to be the worst defended, the worst at martial arts, the one who comes across as least likely to report a flashing, the one who is the least effective when it comes to hitting her brother's mate^† in the face.

In Cambridge, when the police ran an initiative to cut housebreaking by giving out window locks and suchlike, the level of mugging went up because people walking became easier targets than empty houses. The criminals didn't stop, they just moved to weaker targets, creating an arms race amongst law-abiding citizens trying defend themselves better than their neighbours.


† Remembering here that 4/5ths of rapes are perpetrated by someone known to the attacker.

Re: I *hate* victim-blaming.

[cokephreak.livejournal.com]

I get your point overall, but I'm not sure I get how the ramblers story fits to this.

Yuo seem to be thinking that when I talk about personal responsibilty I also infer blame and guilt.
This is not the case.

Please note that this was brought up in discussion about leaving your bluetooth turned on. I used the apparently imfamous "gold watch analogy". This was apparently a mistake. One that I've already made online and in person appologies for.

umm ... prehaps a better example would be concerning wearing seatbelts. The onus is on the other drivers to drive safely, but I'll still call you a fool if you don't wear a seatbelt - right up unitl I'm visiting you in hospital. then you get sympathy and any help I can be in prosecuting the careless driver that hit you.
And for the last time: I AM NOT APPLYING THIS TO RAPE.
(sry if this looks like an over-reaction - see the other comments)